Hi everybody my name is Jane Hiddleston ... I'm a tutor in French and I'm here with my colleague Joanna Neilly who is a tutor in German ... and then we've got Sonia here who is an undergraduate student in her second year studying ... beginners German and Spanish. So I thought I would start off by telling you just a little bit about kind of an Oxford interview, ... what is an Oxford interview, ... what are we trying to sort of achieve through interviewing candidates in this way ... and I guess the first thing I would say is that this is in a way quite a kind of informal process, and it's a way for us to get to know you, to get to meet the candidate, to find out a little bit about what your interests are and what you're capable of, but above all it's really not a test of knowledge, so I don't recommend that people kind of go away and start sort of preparing too much ... kind of pre-learned knowledge for their interview, it's much more about having a dialogue and a conversation where we get to kind of see the ways you think and to kind of work together with you perhaps to develop your ideas. It's also almost like a kind of experiment for us in working with you as a student, ... so you can almost imagine that parts of the interview might feel like a kind of a mini tutorial - so the tutorial is the small group teaching that we do at Oxford - ... so we might ... discuss your ideas, discuss a piece of text with you, ... but again not in order for you to kind of come up with some sort of completed and polished answer, but in order for us to sort of help you think through your ideas and kind of work together with us in in developing them. So we're looking at things like your sort of responsiveness your analytical skills but as I say very much not at sort of your formal knowledge that you might have kind of acquired already at school. Perhaps my colleague Joanna might want to add something at this point? Yeah absolutely thanks very much Jane ... I would second all that ... and maybe just say a few things more specifically about ... Modern Languages interviews ... exactly all those principles apply that Jane just spoke about, we're also thinking about what motivates you to do your subject .. I don't mean so much how perfectly polished your German grammar is at this stage or whatever and how fluent the linguist you are, although of course if you're taking a language to A-Level standard we expect you to ... be working with the grammar you've learned at school and and trying to to work out answers to problems with help if you need them, but it's more about do you want to go further with this language and are you interested in culture and literature ... as well, so that doesn't mean you have to have visited the country many many times, or have lots of exposure to native speakers, some students do and some students don't at this stage, ... but more that you're keen to know more it might be that you've read novels in translation for example or it might be that you're interested in pop culture or that you keep up with the news from the country whose language you're studying ... so a motivation to study the subject, an interest in the language and an interest beyond the language in its culture. Perhaps also you might want to study linguistics, you're interested in how language works, again you don't have to have studied all those things extremely formally but we want to see that you're keen to do so and that you have an aptitude, so some of the things you discuss in the interview might be brand new ideas that you've not come across before and that's fine, you don't need to be an expert on those things, but you do need to want to find out more and to show that you've tried to find out a little bit more before you come here. Okay great thanks ... Joanna. I'll maybe just say a couple of things about the format now of the interview so what we're going to be doing is ... an interview for a beginner's language for beginners German, and this will be pretty much the same in format to any other language interview but the difference would be that if you're applying post A-Level, a portion of the interview would happen in the language, so we would speak to you for about five minutes or so in French or German or Spanish or whatever language it is that you're applying for, but we won't do that today so that this is kind of approachable for anybody applying for any language, and what we would usually do would be to start off just by introducing ourselves and asking the candidate to think a bit about their sort of interests, as Joanna was saying, we might think a bit about kind of why ... the candidate wanted to study languages, we'd have a general chat about their experience of language learning, of the culture perhaps of the country of the language that they're learning, ... and we may ask a little bit about what ... you have studied so far ... after that we're going to ... discuss together ... with the candidate a poem, so if this was a post A-Level interview you probably would get an extract ... or a poem it could be a piece of prose but a short extract to look at that would be in the language. But because this is beginners it's going to be in English and we're going to present our candidate with a short poem ... and we'll share the screen so that we can kind of just read that together during the course of the interview ... and again we won't be kind of waiting for her to come up with a sort of polished answer on the poem it'll just be an informal discussion and we'll talk through the poem sort of bit by bit together. So that's the format of the interview. I think we can now move on and start the interview.

My name is Jane Hiddleston and I'm a tutor in French ... my colleague is here as well, Joanna Neilly, would you like to introduce yourself? Hello I'm Joanna and I'm a tutor in German. And then Sonia? Hi my name is Sonia ... and I'm applying to study beginners German. Great okay thanks very much it's very nice to meet you. So I wonder if we could just start off by asking you then why you've chosen to apply for beginners German and Spanish, why have you come up with that as your as your choice? I think German's a particularly fascinating language because it's a nice contrast to the language I already know which is Spanish, ... it's nice to have ... a different language in there with a different set of grammar rules and i know that in German for instance verbs usually come to the end of sentences and there are some kind of quirks within the German language which are quite different from Spanish, and I think that the culture is also particularly interesting, I think the folkloric elements ... embedded even today with festivals such as Oktoberfest are interesting to learn about and talk about and discuss. Okay fantastic so I'm quite ... interested that you mentioned the sort of differences between German and Spanish, and you notice there are kind of quirks in sort of German grammar, do you have any examples that you're thinking of there? One thing that's interesting ... with nouns in Spanish for instance there's a masculine and feminine noun which is ... which you kind of learn by remembering, una and un, una being the feminine and un being the masculine

and I know that in German I think there are three genders ... feminine, masculine and then neuter ... and although they're accompanied by ... a different set of pronouns beforehand, so die, der, das

I've heard and I've read about it that there aren't particular structures, where the nouns end on certain endings ... so in the German language I assume you would have to just memorize the words along with the gender of the noun. Okay great so you sound like you're the kind of person who's quite interested in grammar, which is fantastic, not everybody finds grammar easy it's one of these things that can be quite difficult to kind of get your head around. I wonder why you think it's important for a language learner to understand grammar and to almost to speak ... in a grammatically correct way? Isn't just making yourself understood more important, I mean why ... do we have to aim for grammatical accuracy do you think? I think grammatical accuracy is important because sometimes things can be lost in translation, so learning the things in that particular language, learning about a culture in that particular language, ... actually carries some kind of sentiments and meaning with it ... and I believe that ... the grammar kind of almost reveals something about the culture perhaps, so for instance in Spanish unlike in German and unlike in English or other European languages, ... the question usually, when you're stating a question, it usually starts at the beginning, that's why we have the upside down uh question mark and it's the same with exclamations something which isn't really known or isn't used in German, ... and yeah as I said I think that adds a bit of value to the culture ... and changes the tones almost in the way you speak .. yeah. Okay great thanks, maybe should I ask one last question about language and then perhaps I'll hand over to Joanna to speak a bit more about German specifically. I wonder what you think ... you talked about being lost in translation. I kind of wonder if you can tell me a bit more about that phrase, what kinds of things get lost in translation, why can't we just translate kind of directly and clearly from one language to another? I think because there are certain for instance idioms and words which can't be translated to different languages and

if we do begin to translate things literally word for word or even we begin to interpret things and these certain words can be lost because a lot of the words ... within languages carry ... meanings. Okay great thanks, so perhaps Joanna would like to ask a bit more about German specifically? Absolutely, we have lots of um examples of untranslatable things in German or indeed German words that seem to have moved into English like schadenfreude and zeitgeist and I'm sure you'll come across more of those ... as you study German. I'd like to ask a little bit though about your interest in in studying German culture and literature, obviously you're a keen linguist, that's come across really well so far, ... and I saw from your statement that you wrote for us that you have however done some reading I presume an English translation, but of ... Kafka and Thomas Mann, ... so Little Herr Friedemann by Thomas Mann and ... Kafka's Metamorphosis, is there one or the other of those you'd prefer to talk about, or which you liked better than the other? I don't mind but I think I would prefer to talk about ... Die Verwandlung, Kafka's Metamorphosis. Okay fantastic, I'm happy to do that. So ... yeah ... so Metamorphosis it starts off and maybe you remember how it begins the opening sentence of the opening page and it starts off in this very alienating and sudden way, where Gregor Samsa finds he's being transformed overnight and that this is not a metaphor that's not a dream it really has happened to him, so how do you find that experience as a reader what kind of world does Kafka take us into? It takes us into this completely different realm where ... tragedy and comedy almost mixed together so it's a kind of tragic comical element to it and Samsa, Gregor Samsa wakes up finds himself to be a bug and he's still trying to rush off to work we find him kind of scratching trying to get out from bed and his boss is knocking at his door so there are elements of comedy also ... throughout the text as we kind of feel sympathy for him, Kafka has sympathy for the bug, for being excluded from his family from his job, and yet trying to um kind of live his normal life as a bug. Yeah thank you and I'm not sure how recently you read it, but you said Kafka somehow manages to evoke sympathy in the reader and can you think of how he does this? I'm kind of thinking about narrative style here or any particular way that he affects us as readers, why do you think this text is so affecting for you to read? I particularly, well with regards to that, I remember the scene where ... Gregor was in his room as a bug and then his ... mother and sister come in and start to and take away all the furniture from him which kind of symbolizes ... them stripping away his identity, ... and it kind of reminds me of the idea that ... he no longer is a human he then becomes a vermin ... and his parents kind of neglect him in that way. But of course the furniture is no good to him anymore, so? It's not but he does hide under it, it's kind of his protection they kind of ruin the shell that he forms in his room and they kind of force him to expose himself and face the reality, the brutal reality that he no longer kind of belongs to this family it was always in a way ... has been taken away from him within one night. It's a really nice word that Kafka uses for ... Gregor Samsa's bedroom and of course if you've read the text in English in preparation it probably won't have been translated, I'm not sure what they do in English, but in German it's a menschenzimmer which is a person room, and this isn't really a normal word in German either it's a neologism that Kafka coins to describe Gregor Samsa's menschenzimmer, his person room, ... does that kind of shed any light on what you've just been saying about his humanity somehow being tied up with his own his space his own space? Yeah so the idea of it being a human room and then he's a of course a bug now transformed into a bug kind of shows that there's no room for him in this house and we also see that when ... the mother brings in three ... men to live in the house ... which kind of, to earn money and also to ... yeah to provide for the family, because Gregor's is no longer the breadwinner, ... we see him slowly kind of becoming claustrophobic in his own room, kind of being excluded from his house, and yeah by his family. And do you have any sympathy for his family members at all or are they really portrayed as these ... kind of money grabbing and exploitative people who don't really understand their son and brother, or is there anything that we get from their point of view that tells a different story? On the one hand I do feel um like although is being uh portrayed as as a pest a bug, I think it's quite ironic because it's the family that kind of ... acts as this pest, they suck the life out of him, they take from him ... they rely on him, they're dependent on him, so in a way the family is almost a bug and yet Gregor is being portrayed as ... vermin in the story. However we do kind of get this rite of passage from Greta his sister, and that's why I think the title is a kind of innuendo because we have the metamorphosis of Gregor and the metamorphosis of ... Greta, so we do kind of get more perspective as she develops as a woman, and she's ready for marriage by the end of ... the text, and we I think we can sympathize with her as well because we see her character develop throughout the ... novella. Absolutely I always have a lot of sympathy for his family actually, my students sometimes ... think I'm a bit cruel about Gregor Samsa. I think if I woke up and there was a enormous bug ... in the house I might have, yeah I can understand how his family feel the way they do, ... but it's definitely a really interesting text when we think about kind of family relations as something that are always also become monetized and corrupted by capitalist systems and systems of capital and so on. Thank you very much that was really fascinating discussion of the Metamorphosis, I don't think we have time for much more but I'm just really curious ... if you see kind of links between Gregor Samsa and the main character in Little Herr Friedemann that you've read ... but just out of curiosity? I think that um Johannes, der kleine Friedemann, ... there are links because he was also destined to a life of kind of sadness and solitude in a way because of his disability which is not specified in the text but we know it's because of ... his nurse dropping him as a child ... and he kind of also has to is forced to live this life of ... seclusion because of something that was out of his control in a way. Yeah I think it's really interesting how both texts actually deal with with ... the limits and capabilities of the body in different ways and how this is utilized ... by others, by the family, by society and so on, so I think that is a really nice link actually that you've identified. I think we should probably move on to the next portion of the interview now so ... just to pause it with an explain because this is a beginner's ... interview ... I'll be presenting a poem to you in English and we'll discuss it in English, ... if you were applying ... for a, a kind of post ... beginner's level language ... the text might indeed be in German. But I'm going to share my screen with you now, before I do so and it's just to say I'm gonna give you two minutes or so, Jane and I will switch off our microphones just in case there's any noise disruption, and you can just look at the text for a couple of minutes note that anything interesting that occurs to you and think in particular about the title of the poem and its relation to the poem itself ... and after those two minutes are up we'll have a discussion about some of your impressions of the poem. So I'm going to share my screen now ... and you can just let me know, you should be seeing a poem entitled 'a coat' and it's quite a short poem, the last line is 'in walking naked' Can you see the entire poem on your screen? Great ... okay so just I'll switch myself off on mute for a couple of minutes now if you want to take some notes that's absolutely fine and then I'll jump back in to have a discussion of the poem.

Okay I'm jumping back in now but don't worry if you haven't got a full interpretation ready of this poem I don't expect that at all and certainly if you want to take time to read it over again as we're discussing it that's absolutely fine. I'm going to leave the poem on the screen now so that you can refer back to it of course ... during our discussion ... but the main thing I asked you to think about while you were looking through the poem ... is the the title of the poem and what you think that means and how it relates to the poem as a whole, so could you say a little bit about your first impressions there please? Yeah I thought that the titular coat kind of sets the tone for the rest of the poem ... in a way it could be interpreted as an extended metaphor ... for the way the author of the poem explains the creation of his song ... which he metaphorically refers to as a coat ... and I interpreted it as ... the author almost ... talking about how he patches together the pieces to his song ... to his poem. Yeah good, so definitely a metaphorical relation between the coat and the song that's absolutely right ... I made my song a coat could of course grammatically be understood two ways ... making the song into a coat, or making a coat for the song, ... did you have a kind of particular, did you come down one way or the other on that? I'm leaning towards the idea that ... these

that the

... the song was made as a coat almost ... yeah. Okay so the coat is ... covered with embroideries out of old mythologies ... what could that mean given that we're talking about this metaphorical relation between song and this coat, it's got embroideries and the embroideries are from old mythology? So the way that perhaps a coat is embroidered ... this song has been kind of embellished with old mythologies ... so the old mythologies kind of patched together to form this song

So is it the poet's own song or is it, you know, a kind of plagiarism or what's ... happening with these old mythologies being woven in, is this original? Is the perhaps the poet trying to suggest that these mythologies are untrue in a way that they've been reworked and remoulded and reshaped into what we now know? Yeah I think there's definitely an element of reworking as well isn't there, I mean you can imagine we have ancient myths that keep returning again in modern culture ... so there's something here I think about the relation between modern creation or new creation and it's link to tradition. I would read it that the coat is being made for the song almost as if the coat is something added to the song, but ... as I said that first line can be read both ways, ... but if we try to imagine for a moment that what's meant is that the the coat is something that is made and added to the song ... because the song is ... covers is covered heel to throat by the coat ... what happens then in the second part of the poem, but the fools caught it wore it in the world's eyes as though they'd wrought it - they're taking this coat away from the song, what do we make of that? I think the butt acts as a kind of poetic vaulter where everything turns around in the poem that's a kind of turning point ... the force could it relate to ... the people who plagiarize the poem and the mythologies and wore it in the world's eyes perhaps is a metaphor for the idea that they plagiarized it and then presented it to the world as theirs? So

this kind of wore it in the world's eyes refers to the coat but also to the song perhaps? Yeah so it could be something to do with plagiarism I think absolutely, taking words that aren't your own and using them yourselves as if as, as though they'd wrought it, as though they were the ones who'd created, it ... I think maybe with the word fools is quite interesting here too they aren't just I don't know other poets who he recognizes as as equal or ... deceivers, he calls them, he or she calls them fools so what's going on here with us kind of taking someone's words but being foolish with them, is there a misuse of the of the song or the songs coat? Perhaps a misuse but I think it could also suggest that the poet knows what's true and what's not ... that the poet knows that they have kind of ... reworked this piece of work into something different and ... that the façade they put up perhaps the poet can see through it, or the narrator rather.

Yeah and can you think of ways in which, it's not specific to this poem, but in which, I think we're talking here about the yeah the words of a poem or the words of a song ... something potentially very moving very affecting being misused for a different purpose or being brought out into the public and meaning something else, is that something that can be done with with culture or with poems or songs, can they be kind of misused for ends that weren't their original ends? One thing that comes to my mind is the mythology of the, well the way women are presented in mythology, so for example Medusa ... although she was a victim of rape ... has now been reworked to this woman to whom many people even now interpret as an aggressor with snakes on her head who ... turns men into and other people into basically stone, ... even though in reality she was a victim of Prometheus ... and it's the same with the story of Troy where Helena was blamed ... for her capturing even though it wasn't her fault. Yeah so there's a kind of, it might be gendered as it is in your case, it might be political, it might be racialized, but things can be misused in order to mean something that takes them away from their original sense or their original message. Okay so let's start on that note look at the final few lines: song let them take it but there's more enterprise in walking naked, ... what did you make of that as an ending?

Can I prompt you a bit here, and I just wonder that the walking naked seems to be kind of quite an important point to emerge at the end and I wondered what you thought about how that's presented as kind of perhaps a sort of opposition with the whole idea of covering, there's this kind of excessive covering in the first part of the poem, and then suddenly this image of sort of nudity, what might the poet be trying to say with that opposition do you think? I was going to comment that I think the word naked kind of contrasts the coat, which suggests ... perhaps the poet is trying to say that it's better to be ... kind of unique, or not have any ideas, than to steal someone else's, ... and in that sense of naked that not really plagiarizing anything or ... not stealing what belongs to someone else

And the song's still there, the coat is gone, but the song is still there. The song still exists and it can walk naked ... so just to push that a bit further I think you made a good really good start on that. Yeah I think ... I was wrong there when saying that it's about the people, it's rather about the song, because the .. author apostrophizes the song ... by speaking directly to it in a way and says that it's better to leave the song or the poet poem as it is rather than to remould it and rework it. And I wonder is that something about meaning as well as you were saying with myths kind of getting changed over time and so on but there's some essential meaning that no matter what someone else does to the words or, you know, corrupts the meaning or interprets something wrongly, there is a kind of essence in what the poet wanted to say that somehow remains. Yeah I think that yeah it refers to the fact that the ... the original kind of remains at the heart of the poem rather than ... what has been reworked and ... remoulded into something new. Okay ... I think probably we should wrap up on the poem there because we've had a good ... 10 minutes or so at it already, ... unless there was any other kind of further point that you wanted to, ... that struck you about the poem, but you don't have to. I think what's interesting is ... the rhyme of the poem although it doesn't follow a strict rhyme ... there are some rhymes between the words and one of the words that doesn't actually rhyme with any other is naked ... and and it kind of doesn't really create an almost a connection with any other part of the poem, it kind of just strikes on its own ...

the poet also uses a lot of consonants throughout ... the poem so a coat made covered embroideries ... old mythologies ... so that alliteration of o and the consonants of o which kind of elongates the poem in a sense and adds a tone of frustration to it. Yeah so that the poem is actually quite intricately crafted even though it also talks about meaning being as if not more important than than specific words. Okay wonderful I think I'll make the poem disappear now and just come back to, the poem should be gone yeah. I think this is the part of the interview really where we ask if you have any questions for us, ... you don't have to, it's not an important part of the assessment, but it's a good opportunity if you do have any questions about the course to ask them now if they have occurred to you. I don't think I actually have any. Okay that's absolutely fine. Jane was there anything else from you? Yeah I was just gonna say, that's great, and thank you so much and it's been it's been great to speak with you and I think we'll end the interview here, so thank you. Thank you.

Okay so we're just going to spend a couple of minutes now kind of reflecting on the interview. From my perspective I would say that was a pretty stunning interview, obviously Sonia is going to be a couple of years ahead of anybody who's applying this year ... so just to bear in mind we wouldn't expect necessarily that amount of knowledge and polish but that was a very successful interview I think showing lots of ... lots of knowledge and fantastic analytical skills. Just a quick note of something that I didn't refer to earlier was obviously this whole experience is taking place online, which is something that's sort of relatively new to us as a result of the pandemic. I think I would stress that ... interviews kind of face to face would be very much ... would take very much the same form that we haven't actually changed the nature of the interview ... in doing it online ... but hopefully it will feel sort of still a relaxed kind of relaxing to do because you'll be in your own environment and I would just add everything went smoothly technologically, if ever there are any technological problems during your interview, of course that would in no way affect the selection process, we would just stop and we would reschedule and start again, so don't worry too much about technological problems but obviously that went nice and smoothly on that occasion. So yeah my feeling was that was a very successful interview, the questions I asked at the beginning about language, about grammar and translation I thought you dealt with very well, I thought it was very nice that you said that you'd noticed kind of differences ... in the ways in which Spanish and German work shows you sort of thought about your languages and you had a nice example there we're talking about gender ... you also spoke nicely about the process of translation ... I wondered there, if anybody was kind of thinking about preparing for an interview, if just any more kind of specific examples might have also been helpful to add there, but I thought otherwise that that went very well and then yeah Joanna might have some more comments on the German. Yeah absolutely I agree and this was a very strong interview, just again to reiterate what Jane said ... we're delighted to have Sonia here with us in Oxford, she is a good year and a half ahead of any one who would be applying in this round and has had a year at the Oxford course so, just as Jane said, ... this isn't the standard we're expecting, it was a very high standard. But in terms of what was good about Sonia's interview that could apply ... to interviews from candidates in in sixth form ... so for example we talked a little bit about her reading of Kafka's Metamorphosis ... and Sonia was able to answer quite general questions but also refer to specific bits of the the story that she remembered that had struck her particularly as a reader, and that's something that any of you can do, and if there's something you've read, something you've enjoyed, ... sometimes even if it's in English literature I'm always very happy to talk about about those interests because this course is about ... literary aptitude and kind of reading poetry and literature and getting interested in film and all aspects of culture. If you haven't had a chance to read many texts even, if they're in translation, that's not a problem but it is nice if you if you're studying a beginner's language that maybe you thought about reading one or two of the major texts in English translation, and Sonia had done that and and she was able to say um just some very interesting things about what had struck her as a reader and that led us to think a bit about kind of narrative and character and led on to a more in-depth discussion so, ... thinking about why you like the things you like ... in your study of culture ... is important because it's your enthusiasm that will come across at the interview and that will express your you know ... your motivation for studying the subject so that I think that's the point that anyone can take away from this interview. Likewise ... when we read the poem ... Sonia was keen to refer back to the text and there were points as you will have seen where Sonia and I slightly disagreed in interpretation of the poem but that's not a problem if you've got an interpretation that you want to talk about, ... you can say interesting things about that it doesn't have to be the same as mine, ... but she was also willing to go with me when I presented ... some ideas, there was a disagreement over how we both interpreted the first line ... which could be interpreted one of two ways ... and Sonia was willing to to be a bit flexible and think about the way I saw the poem as well as the way she initially saw it so I think it's good if you're presented with new ideas you don't have to instantly agree with them certainly not and you don't have to ... rush to change your mind on the spot, but it's nice to to think a little bit and take a pause and think about new ideas and see where they take you so and those are things that kind of no matter how much reading or preparation you have done, hopefully you can take away from this interview. But yeah absolutely ... very good interview. Sonia do you want to just give us your thoughts about how that went from your perspective how it felt? Honestly it was very similar to the interview that I actually did have in person when I was in Oxford for the first time, ... and I think the interview was pretty nerve-wracking even though I already study here, but ... I think the interview went well there was no kind of problems with any of the technological stuff so yeah. Okay fantastic ... the other things we're supposed to do is a few a few tips on what you might want to do now if you're going through our applications process and thinking about preparing for the interview. I think we've covered quite a lot of that I think the main thing is if you are already studying the language that you wish to study ... do revise your grammar for the aptitude test ... think about ... reading a few poems or watching a few films or reading novels in translation or following the kind of news ... of that country, it doesn't have to be all of those things, ... but some of those things would show an interest ... or motivation I think. It doesn't have to necessarily be classical literature it could be spoken word poetry ... pop music ... but any aspect of the culture that you're interested in, think about why ... if there's something you're not keen to talk about in the interview do not put it in your UCAS form because if you mention something that you're interested in we'll assume that you want to talk about it ... so it should be something you like, not something that you think we're looking for, because we're not looking for any one particular type of student. Yeah and ... just to add to that you can kind of imagine that on some level you have a bit of control over the kinds of things you might speak about at least in the first part of the interview before we get to the poem ... so that you should see that perhaps as a kind of positive thing that you can go away and perhaps think a little bit about what books or films or topics you've enjoyed at school ... or what it is that personally for you kind of motivated you ... that we're not going to ask you something that's kind of got, you know, got a set answer already, that we're not expecting particular forms of knowledge. So I say just go out and immerse yourself in the culture in any way you possibly can and certainly as Joanna said if you're post A-level then you could just revise your grammar for the grammar test as well. I think probably we can we can stop there so thanks everybody, thanks for participating Sonia, and thanks to everybody for listening.